Oct 12 2015

Oh Lord, You owe us one (actually you owe us a lot)

There are probably a lot of fans, who DVR’d today’s playoff game between the Astros and the Royals. Probably all of those recordings will be deleted unwatched.

This was a game that the Astros were leading 6-2 going into the eighth inning. This was a game that was going to escort them comfortably into the ALCS and perhaps the World Series. This was a game that died a slow painful death for Astros’ fans just like so many times before as the bullpen suffered a Chernobyl meltdown with the help of a fielding error by their young star Carlos Correa and gave up 7 runs in the last 2 innings.

Lord – you owe us. A lot. Think about all we have been through over the years.

1962 – 1979

The Astros went forever before tasting the post-season. While our fellow expansion team, the Mets went to 2 World Series, winning one in 1969, Amazing style, our home team made stumbling an art form. Only 3 seasons above .500 in those first 18 seasons and no post season appearances. Yuck.

1980 – 1986

These seasons featured 3 post-season appearances and so much angst, it burns the insides of Astro fans to this day.

They met the Phillies in 1980 for the right to go on to the World Series (which the Phillies won that season). After losing the first game in a best of 5 series, the Astros won two straight extra inning games to be one win short of the series. Game 4 they held a 2-0 lead in the 8th, gave up 3 runs in the 8th, came back to tie it in the 9th and lost in 10 innings. In Game 5 with Nolan Ryan on the mound they held a 5-2 lead going into the 8th, gave up 5 runs in the 8th (sound familiar), came back to tie it in the 8th and lost it in the 10th. That is the first time I ever cried about a baseball game and the heck with Tom Hanks.

In 1981, a work stoppage caused there to be a first half vs second half champion series and the Astros took a 2-0 lead in the series against the Dodgers before losing 3 in a row to go home.

1986 is almost as painful to Astro fans as to Bill Buckner. The Astros played the Mets and the difference maker was Mike Scott and his spit finger – oops split finger fastball. Game 6 was a classic for the ages, but don’t forget the Astros blew a 5-4 lead in the 9th to lose game 3 and fell 2-1 in 12 innings in game 5. In game 6 they held a 3-0 lead going into the 9th with Mike Scott ready to wipe the floor with the Mets in the wings for game 7. And of course they lost the lead in the 9th and eventually the game in the 16th inning.

1987 – 1996

They were not terrible, but they had a decade drought without the playoffs.

1997 – 2005

Yes, this was the golden age for the Astros. They sported six playoff appearances in nine seasons, but no ring. They suffered four straight first round losses, including the 1998 Randy Johnson led team that just could not hit and only scored 3 runs total in their 3 losses.

In 2004, they finally (after 43 seasons) won their first playoff series, but it was just a tease. They came back from 2 games down to take a 3-2 lead in the NLCS against the Cards and then one win away from the World Series they lost a heart breaker in 12 innings in the 6th game and then watched Roger Clemens falter in the 7th game.

In 2005, they did great things just to make the playoffs after a horrendous start. They had a magnificent 18 inning win against the Braves to make the NLCS against the Cards and seemed ready to roll into the World Series with Roy Oswalt as the Game 1 starter, but….. Albert Pujols highlighted another bullpen failure and the Astros had to use Roy O to get to the WS not to start it. In the World Series, the bullpen led by Brad Lidge lost 3 of the 4 games and it was a sad sweep by the White Sox.

Which leads us to today’s game. What can be said? Paraphrasing the old country song – these losses by the bullpen are a family tradition.

Can they come back on Wednesday? This is the most resilient team most of us have ever seen. But at some point Cinderella’s carriage turns back into the pumpkin and the fear is that time is about to come.

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178 comments on “Oh Lord, You owe us one (actually you owe us a lot)”

  2. The Cubs have not appeared in the WS since 1945 and haven’t won a WS since 1908. That is more misery than the Astros have endured. The Lord does not owe us anything.
    It is the Astros who owe us!

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  3. My nephew is a retired Kansas City detective, and still works as the head of their union. He is in charge of Security for the Royals. We have gone back and forth today about whose gonna take game 5…..we agreed to disagree! No, the Lord has nothing to do with whether or not this team wins or losses. I joke (not really!!) That I have said a prayer for them, but ultimately they are in control of their destiny. The team in Arlington lost REALLY bad today, so it seems we are in the same boat….win or go home. My hope is that our team really is the Cinderella team this year, and we finally get the monkey off our back!! The Rangers have been to the big show twice as many times as we have, and come home with nothing to show for it. I know Wed game is a LOT to put on McHugh, but I think he can handle it…..Hinch *has* to figure out another game plan before WednesdayS game, because Will Harris and Tony Sipp are toast. Same for Gregersen. If that doesn’t keep him up at night, nothing will!
    I’m STILL so angry with the tv stations inerviewing the players after the game today.
    First time I’ve ever seen Correa a little pi $$ed off. Why couldn’t they say great game today! Go get ’em in Kansas City! NOPE……just “what went wrong”, in other words why did you commit an error? Talked to Gregersen about the bullpen melt down.
    No wonder these guys don’t like talking to the media. I have faith that our guys will play as hard as they can, and if they play a clean game….they have a good chance to win. McHugh draws Cueto Wednesday night.

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  4. I have to think Keuchel will be available out of the pen tomorrow night. There is no sense saving him for a potential ALCS Game 1 as they may not have a game 1 if the same bullpen pieces are used.

    Also, I didn’t hear what the reporter asked Correa after the game, but if this was NY or Boston the questions would have been much tougher. Their job isn’t to coddle these athletes so I’m not going to skewer the reporter for asking a tough question. Correa had a great game at the plate, but he also made a crucial error that was vital in the Royals rally. He will have other tough moments going forward and will have to face the music. It is what it is.

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  5. I did not feel as comfortable as our Governor after seven innings being up 6 to 2. Dan, you’ve noted just a few of the meltdowns we’ve experienced over the years.

    I can’t comprehend Hinch and his use of the pen. Even if he finishes KC yesterday with his go to guys, he’s still got 14 potential games coming up and there is no way the same three guys, Sipp, Harris and Gregerson carry the team until the end of the month of October. Again, we’ve got a guy in the pen that threw a no hitter, a guy we gave up a whole lot of prospects for. We’ve seen Gomez come alive in this playoff series. There is no reason Fiers could not have been a contributor yesterday. Put him in when up four runs and give him a shot to finish the game. He’s fresh. He’s ptched well for us. And if he gets in a bind, then you go to the gassed arms we’ve been using daily.

    The other thing about Fiers is that he’s got a pretty good strike out pitch, something most of our pen really lacks. I mentioned this last week. Going forward, we need guys in the pen who specialize in whiffs. Guys that won’t allow a big inning to develop. With a bunch of pitch to contact guys, five singles in a row will happen every now and then.

    The thing that has me most disappointed about the loss is that it should have been such a wonderful moment for McCullers and Correa. Those two kids basically carried the team to the ALCS yesterday. They played like veterans on a huge stage. They should have had the memory of a very special win yesterday.

    And last, I can’t recollect the last time I’ve seen a guy given an error off a deflected ball. Sipp got a lot of glove on that ball. That changes the spin on the ball, the way the it hops and it is anything but a routine play for a fielder. If someone should have gotten an error on that play, it was Sipp. If he fields that comebacker, he’s got a home to first double play and the rally is over.

    The biggest error though, is how the pen was utlized. Just doesn’t make sense.

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    • Well said about the loss of the wonderful moments for Correa and LMJ. A total shame.

      Not sure what Hinch was seeing/thinking. Clearly Harris was off.

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    • As a former SS, I thought that was an error immediately after it shot past Correa. It’s a tough play, but he never should have been to the side of the ball. One more step to his left, and he had time, and worst case is the ball is knocked down on the infield. Now, I have no doubt Correa was gassed, his arm was hurting (or numb?), and he saw it as a routine double play. Those kind of freak errors happen in games 1-162, but when losses end seasons they are magnified and remembered. It’s a shame because he rescued them so many times in the game to that point, but we and the media were quick to jump on him. If Harris isn’t sent out to give up 4 straight hits, Sipp could field his position, Sipp could locate his slider, or any number of events happen differently we never even have this conversation.

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  6. I do want to be clear that I think that God has more important things (like the health of Becky’s grandsons) to worry about than how this bit of entertainment goes.
    However, God if You are interested and You are trying to be fair about this – You are not doing a great job. Maybe it needs a younger person’s touch – like your Son.

    What I hate is that Correa, who was overall tremendous yesterday and the only reason the Astros had a lead at all has this hanging over his head or bouncing around his brain.

    I will say this about myself. I have not watched any of the game I recorded. I watched none of the local coverage, none of the national coverage, not one replay of this game. I listened to a Music mix on the way to the bus stop so I did not have to listen to the talking heads on the radio. I am hopeful that Wedenesday will make us forget yesterday and that maybe in three weeks or so we will have forgotten 53 previous seasons of struggles.

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  7. I will add that I didn’t have a problem with Hinch starting Harris for the 8th inning, but I would have pulled him after the first 2 batters reached. At that point I would have gone to Gregerson for a 2-inning save. If he had completed the save he would have had 3 days of rest until game 1 of the ALCS on Friday.

    I was at the game with our 2 boys and after Correa and Rasmus went back-to-back the juice box was jumping and it was electric in there. This is a very tough loss and one they may not be able to recover from this season, but they still have far exceeded my expectations for this year and, whatever happens tomorrow night, I will count this as a successful year (but it will be much easier to take here in Round Rock if the Rangers also complete the collapse on Wednesday -:)).

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    • Tim, I disagree in that Gregerson was gassed even before he reached the mound. I agree with many previous comments. With a four run lead I think Fiers should have been the guy in the eighth. If it had been a closer margin you probably hold back some guys for Wed, but the manager’s goal should have been getting to the ninth (and your gassed closer) with a four run lead so that you can’t lose on a grand slam and you could trade runs for outs if needed. I don’t think the Astros were prepared for the floodgates opening so quickly. As a fan, I certainly wasn’t.

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  8. I did feel comfortable at the beginning of the eighth. I was looking forward to watching another champagne bath. I was comfortable until Hinch brought in Harris.

    I’ve seen games lost in September by using Conger over Stassi, Gattis overTucker.
    But that move yesterday was the one that killed our chances to continue this post season. The Royals have had a look at Sipp, Harris, and Gregerson for 2 or 3 days straight. They are the kind of team that feeds off bad pitching. Obviously, Yost is a smarter manager than Hinch.

    If they had won they would’ve had three days to rest. Yesterday was the day to throw out everything you have to secure a win. Not tomorrow.

    I cant buy into the payback theory. I can’t count the times we’ve had guys called out for over sliding. I don’t think KC has the better team. I think the Astros lost because they were out managed. Again.

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    • The great thing about this blog is that we can agree to disagree and feel comfortable doing so. I think Hinch is a good manager with limited resources, especially in the bullpen. For this team to out-perform their season projection by 10 wins is a credit to the great job by Hinch. I won’t see he was ‘out managed’ as I think he had very few other options to consider. If he had gone to Fiers to start the 8th and he imploded the masses would have been screaming he should have stuck with Harris who has had an excellent year, sans the last month or so. I am confident, with the right personnel, A.J. Hinch can lead this team to a world series title, but it may not happen this year.

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  9. Ned Yost got way lucky yesterday. Runner tries to steal third with two outs and goes out. Leaving Madson in after he gets torched is a real head scratcher.

    At Minute Maid yesterday, we were issued orange towels at the gate and most of the crowd was in orange as well. Crowd was timely in arrival, mostly in their seats at the start of the game. Music was ***loud*** which made the whole stadium loud. The crowd was into it, stood and waved towels whenever there were two strikes. Crowd applauded Escobar when he was OK after the hit pitch and made his way to first. Crowd did not get down or quiet during the meltdown, kept being supportive.

    Only problem was getting out of downtown. Streets were gridlocked in every direction, mostly due to buses hanging in intersections for multiple lights. Our half hour trip took 90 minutes. Charlie Palillo was very even handed on Sports 790, giving the Royals due credit, lauding Lance and Carlos, lauding Wade Davis.

    Memorable game for sure even if the 8th inning felt like The Twilight Zone. I sure like McHugh over Cueto Wednesday. Go Astros!

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    • Steeeve, I have to agree on your Yost comment. He will somehow get credit for that comeback win. At least it wasn’t McClendon managing…that would have really ticked me off.

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  10. I agree with Tim – the problem is that anything Hinch may choose to do would be second guessed. He could have brought in Neshek – man that would have been the end of the world, but he has his hands tied with having guys that have struggled lately. Harris pitched well the previous time out. I do agree they left him in longer than I would have. I assume it is because he has seen Harris get out of trouble before.
    The other thing Tim said is that we can disagree here respectively. Heck, most of what we do here is speculation. We do not know if we would have been right or not. Mike Fiers might have come in and gotten lit up or pitched two perfect innings.

    I just hope that if needed on Wednesday that there are no bullets left in the gun.

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    • So my comment is, if Neshek so bad why is he on this roster? Guys got left off, guys with good arms are in the minors. This is the Show! If a guy isn’t trustworthy and you can’t put him in, why in the hell isn’t somebody else warming up in the bullpen who can get a batter or two out?

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  11. Yes, that’s what makes this blog special. Anyone can give their opinion and it’s always respected by all even though there is disagreement. After all if we all agreed how boring would that be. All the name calling on other blogs is so immature.

    I see your point guys, I really do. I like Hinch and in time with experience he can become a premium manager. But you have to admit he tends to stay with the same guys even though they fail to get the job done. The roster is primarily untapped. Who knows what a difference they could have made.
    I was OK with Harris, but two batters into the eighth it was obvious he just didn’t have anything. Misplays behind him, like Gomez letting that ball fall in front of him sure didn’t help.

    For all our sakes, and for the moral of this young team, I pray for a win tomorrow.
    As for me, I just don’t think I can watch.

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  12. I can still remember an announcer saying in the 1980 game– when we were up 5-2 in the 8th with Ryan pitching— that he (Ryan) had only lost one game in his career when up by that margin in the 8th. Kiss of death, I thought–and was, unfortunately, correct.
    Can we win today—sure–but I am big on momentum and KC has it. But—who knows.
    Fiers always makes me slightly uncomfortable because he seems to lack control. So, I had no problem with Harris staying in. Interesting that they won’t let Neshek pitch at all. He was available—but I guess they go with who is “hot”—or slightly warm. I have no issue with Correa’s play or Sipp deflecting the ball.

    And–yes, Becky the media does ask those “questions”, but they get paid to look for controversy and “bad” is always “good”. Even they would tell you, privately, that their questions are garbage.

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    • Technically, Ryan did not lose that game either, Roger. Frank LaCorte did in the 10th.
      I thought we were going to the World Series for sure. Eighth inning starts and he gives up one regular single, followed by two infield singles and then he walked in a run and got pulled. Nolan was no Keuchel as a fielder as I remember. Sambito and Forsch do the rest of the damage in that 5 run eighth. That was an insanely difficult series to lose. Heart wrenching.

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  13. Just for perspective – Will Harris gave up 4 ER in 2/3 of an inning yesterday. Starting off for 2015 he gave up 4 runs in his first 32 appearances / 4 ER in his first 38 appearances.

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    • And if you consider that he finished 2014 with 16 straight scoreless appearances – you are looking at 4 R over 48 appearances and 4 ER over 54 appearances

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  14. Couple more thoughts. On Correa’s error, the lead runner advanced to third when Carlos Gomez did not hustle in to back up the play. Probably needed to be at the stadium to see that, and maybe Gomez was saving himself due to injury and all.

    I also note that Yost left himself with a lineup of pinch runners, backup catchers and in general a bunch of guys hitting .100 and .000. He was definitely all in. It paid off, but could have gotten ugly if the Astros tied it up.

    Lastly, Yost’s attempt to get a fourth out from Herrera failed, he walked Altuve (um, hard to do!) who then scored on Correa’s homer. Fully understandable, of course, Herrera is one wicked reliever.

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  15. One other consideration. Gregerson was not fooling anyone on Sunday. In his four out save he gave up a homer and a 390 foot shot to the wall that Gomez tracked down. I don’t think he was the guy for a six out save on Monday.

    And Harris did not fool anyone in his game 2 loss. Fiers is the guy that KC has not seen yet. Most guys in the KC line up have probably never seen him. So let him start the eighth and give him two batters and see what happens. If that does not work, then go to your regular pen guys. Even Harris should have gotten the hook after the first two guys in the 8th.

    But let’s not write off this kookie club yet. They’ve scored enough runs to win every game in the series. Maybe we’ll win game 5 by using three starters and avoiding the pen altogether.

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  17. Not supposed to be here. Coming off devastating emotional loss after snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Backs to the wall. Away from home, in hostile territory. Ace unavailable. Bullpen worn out like an old sock. Getting absolutely no help from the 3B position. CF gimpy as all get-out.
    No one – especially Kansas City – expects us to come back and win this thing. That’s our point of leverage. We’ve got ’em right where we want ’em. Stay loose, guys. Play like you love what you are doing, and like your mama, your best gal, and your favorite coach are watching and cheering you on. Go out and surprise ’em all!

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    • Don’t forget our DH, who has only one job.
      His batting line is .150/.150/.150. However, he has shown bear-like patience and grace at the plate.

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      • Just to be clear – we are talking about Preston Tucker, not Becky’s grandson, Tucker (though he would be a bit of an improvement too).
        You know what is going to happen old pro and dave. Gattis will go out and knock in 6 runs and win the game after showing nothing. This team seems to do this over and over.

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      • As much as I see Evan Gattis as likeable and a really good guy, I confess that now every time I see his name in the line-up I shake my head in disgust. So yes, I too would wholeheartedly welcome inserting Preston Tucker as our new DH. Let Evan coach third base or work in the PR department.

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  18. There have been a number of times this season, when I thought it was over.
    – Back in July when their 7 game divisional lead had disappeared and they were trailing the Angels by 2 games.
    – In early August when they lost 7 of 8 and were hanging to the division lead by a 1 game thread
    – In mid-September when they let a 3 game lead slide into a 2.5 game deficit in the course of 10 games.
    – The last week of the season when they headed out for 6 games on the road where they had been putrid and it seemed like they were bound to cough up even the wild card spot.
    And each time the kids came back and held on and moved on. They coughed up a game earlier in this series too. In game 2 they allowed a 4-1 early game lead to morph into a 5-4 loss. But then they played a great game in Game 3.
    I will be interested to see the intestinal fortitude of these guys. Aw heck I’ve already seen that. I would like to see them rewarded for toughing it out this far.

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  19. The one thing that stands out here us that Fiers should have been in the game. He’s different from McCuellars and the Royals had not seen him. Hopefully we’ll not need the BP but if we do it should be Fiers and not Sipp, Harris, or Gregorson.

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  20. Going into tomorrowS game:
    If you can get McHugh through 6 go to your starters.
    Give Keuchel an inning (or batter to batter)
    Give Kazmir,( if we are ahead) an inning.
    If Hinch feels like he has no choice, let Fiers put out the fire. Get it??!!
    Do NOT give ToNY Sipp the ball.
    This is an all out b*lls to the wall game. Pull every single trick outta the book, because you KNOW Ned Yost is going to do the same.
    Cueto gets in trouble when he tries to get too cute, with all the back turning crap.
    So I look for him to pitch, instead of all body movements.
    If Collin can keep the ball in the park, we have a chance….and it appeared yesterday that Gomez is hurt. This is NOT the game to play a guy whose hurt.
    Stand on your head naked an sing America the Beautiful if that’s what you gotta do to win this game!!! Don’t stand there DO SOMETHING!!!
    I believe…..so I think we got this game tomorrow night!!

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    • Keuchel is one guy we can’t pitch. After throwing 124 pitches Sunday he is out. You have to save him for Friday. This is not negotiable.
      McCullers is out. He threw over 100 pitches yesterday and could not throw tomorrow. He would probably start Saturday if we make it.
      Everybody else is available, especially if it is to one batter.
      The difference between Sunday and Tuesday is that Tuesday is absolutely the last game for one team, so both teams are in the same boat.

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    • Completely disagree. You cannot burn your game 1 starter in the ALCS, to pitch two innings in relief. If you can’t trust your closer to close a division series win with a day’s rest you might as well pack it in. You do realize the Astros chose this roster? If you can’t find a stopper out of the other nine pitchers then we didn’t belong here anyway.
      Keuchel is way too valuable for the next five to 10 years to take a chance on hurting him.

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    • And I completely, respectfully, disagree with you, OP. Keuchel would get his normal bullpen work on Wednesday in between his starts. There is no reason to hold him back for a potential game of 1 of the ALCS that probably won’t occur. I am comfortable with Gregerson going an inning, but no one else in the bullpen brings me comfort, not even Fiers or Kazmir. If they have the lead after 7 I would like to see Keuchel in the 8th and, depending on how many pitches he has thrown, look at him for the 9th. KC struggles against LHs and there isn’t a much better LH in the A.L. playoffs than Keuchel. Give him the ball, if needed.

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      • I’m with oldpro. If the ALCS is all that matters, it becomes all hands on deck. It’s not. If the other arms can’t find 27 outs tomorrow night they certainly can’t find enough to win 4 games next series and 4 more against the NL champ.

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      • I’m with OP here. If they can’t trust the pitchers that THEY choose for the playoff roster then they don’t deserve to be in the playoffs. If they win tomorrow what will they do for the rest of the playoffs.

        This has been my argument for days. If you’re gonna use the same lineup and same relievers every game then you don’t trust the players YOU chose for the roster. What happens if one of the position players gets hurt or the three relief pitchers collapse? If they can’t figure out how to utilize the whole roster then they’re doomed.

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      • Isn’t this why we lost game 4? We went to the guys we chose for the playoff roster and they didn’t perform. You worry about the ALCS once you get there. There is no use in saving Keuchel for game 1 of the ALCS if your bullpen can’t close out ALDS game 5. It seems like everyone on here was livid Hinch went to Harris in game 4, but now you want to trust him and the others in the bullpen in an elimination game? John Gibbons pitched David Price in the 5th inning of an elimination game yesterday. The playoffs are about doing the unorthodox. Survive and advance and worry about the next game once you have a next game. Now, if you feel Keuchel won’t be able to pitch because he threw 124 pitches on Sunday I can understand your reasons, though I think he will be fine, but if your reasoning is we need him for game 1 of the ALCS your reasoning is flawed. Ask Lou Pinella if he wished he hadn’t removed Carlos Zambrano early in an NLDS game against Arizona. His reasoning was he wanted him available for a game 4 that never happened.

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      • Tim, what does it say to your entire team, including the starting pitchers that you don’t have any faith in your bullpen. You are better off losing with bullpen you have than winning with Keuchel and telling every player on that squad that you don’t trust these relievers that you paid millions of dollars to. That’s just as crazy as having young players sitting on the bench while old players suck.
        And I understand Keuchel has cut back on his bullpens because of the short rest and big pitch load. He did not have a bullpen session between starts last week.

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      • And this game 5 is different than game 4 because all the relief pitchers who pitched in game 4 had also pitched the night before in game 3. In this game 5 all your relievers have had a day off. That is the main reason why you would want to pitch your relievers. They will be rested and every one of them should be available.
        Last year Bumgarner pitched in relief in game 7 because there weren’t any more games. He would never have pitched in relief if there was going to be another series because he would have been the game 1 starter of that next series.

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      • OP,

        Price pitched 3 innings yesterday and it wasn’t the very last game of the season (well, it could have been if the Jays lost). Hinch shouldn’t worry about what his players think, at this point in the season. He should worry about winning this game, at all costs, using whatever and whoever he can. If he doesn’t feel comfortable using Harris, Neshek or Gregerson because he thinks they may be worn out or very hittable by this Royals team that rarely strikes out, then, by all means, he shouldn’t use them. He can stroke those hurt egos in the offseason. Heck, if the Astros do win tomorrow without using anyone in the bullpen they will be very well rested for game of 1 of the ALCS, which starts on Friday. They will have 3 days off from pitching. Good managers, like Joe Maddon, don’t worry about hurting a players ego in the playoffs. If the player has shown he is struggling or if a certain team has his number you can’t worry that he was good for you for the first 5-6 months of the season. The good managers evaluate each situation differently in the playoffs, regardless of the past.

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  22. A couple other things I remember about the 1980 series against the Phillies…
    1) Late in the 4th game, the one where the Astros lost the 2-0 lead late, Gary Woods was on 3rd base and scored on a sacrifice fly. He was then called out on appeal for leaving 3rd base early. What other team would lose a key runner that way.
    2) As good as the pitching was that season, what if they had JR Richard in the playoffs? When he suffered his stroke in July, he was 10-4 with a 1.90 ERA. His WHIP was .924 and he was only giving up 5.1 hits / 9 IP.

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    • The only other team to lose a runner(s) like that are the 2015 Astros. I don’t remember a “fail to tag” play, but they have made more bone head on base outs than any team in my memory. That being said, they are one game from advancing.

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  23. If anybody is watching this Cardinals/Cubs game Joe Maddon is treating game 4 as a game 5, with ‘all hands on deck’. This is why he is very successful and the way I wish most managers would manage instead of ‘going by the book’.

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  24. I’m watching these kids play, and I’m so proud for the Cubs!! Just goes to show you what a really good manager, with a steady hand can do for a young team! NOTHING would make me happier than to see through Cubs send the Cards packing!! Joe Maddon is a magician when it comes to putting the right reliever in to get outs!!
    I wanted Maddon to come here soooo much, but I’ll take Hinch. The guys really like him, and it shows. The only time I’ve seen a guy get angry with him, was when he took the ball out of GregersenS hand. He and Keuchel have had a couple of words when Hinch went out to take his temperature. For YEARS the Cubs and Pirates were made fun of, and we’re near the bottom of the NL central, so it makes me happy to see them playing so well!! GREAT GAME!

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  25. Someone asked Hinch if Keuchel has lobbied to pitch an inning or two in relief……….his answer “I’m not telling you that today, you’ll have to tune in to find out”. “All hands on deck tomorrow”. My guess is….yes.

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  26. There are 22 MLB teams for whose fans the 2015 year consists pretty much of a dimming memory. For the first time in a long time Astros fans have the joy and privilege of being able to say our team is among the top 8 in the world – and making a pretty impressive showing amongst the stars if we do say so ourselves. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that our guys will play AT LEAST one more game. And we know our heroes still have a chance to go to – or even win – the World Series.

    Of course I wish we had won yesterday. But let’s enjoy the ride. It’s been a long time coming!

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    • Mr. Bill you are the voice of calm we all need right now. Yes we ARE in the mix of great teams and wringing our hands and getting all worked up doesn’t accomplish anything. Thank you sir for bringing ME back to earth! This has been a wonderful, agonizing, crazy year, one that I won’t soon forget!!!

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  29. In six innings, the Cubs pen struck out 13 and walked one. Two of the guys who pitched in relief combined for 20 total starts during the season, along with significant pen work. The other five have worked strictly out of the pen. They saved their top three starters for the NLCS. The difference between the Cubs and Astros is that they built a pen full of guys that can strike people out. 13 K’s in six innings! They demoralized a 100 win club.

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    • I will bet you a dime to a dollar that if the Cubs lost game 4 Maddon would have used Arrieta late in a game 5, if they were winning. We will never know because Maddon treated this game like it was an elimination game. He didn’t worry about bruising Hammel’s ego. The minute he looked shaky Maddon got him out of there. The same way Gibbon’s yanked Dickey before he qualified for the win with an 8-2 lead. Bruised egos have 6 months to heal.

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  30. I just want to remind everyone that even though the bullpen faltered a bit down the stretch and in the playoffs, that the bullpen was the area of biggest improvement on the whole team. 2014 their 4.80 ERA was the worst in the league. In 2015 their 3.27 ERA was the 4th best in the league.
    This was the biggest reason the team’s ERA went from 11th in the AL to 1st.
    I know they are struggling now and I do not know if it is because of being tired or more likely being under the big lights of the playoff games. But this team would not be in the playoffs at all without the work of the bullpen.

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  32. My last comment was designed to illustrate why a bullpen can/should be designed/built with a batch of guys that can throw a strikeout. When a pitch to contact pen gets into the post season, they are coming up against the best line ups in the game, in longer series, where everyone gets to know what the other guy does on the mound. The Cubs have built a pen better suited to playoff baseball than the Astros have. And Joe Madden obviously has the confidence to use every guy in his pen.

    As far as Keuchel pitching tonight, I would not rule it out, but it would not be an ideal situation. How many times do you go to the well? The guy has already gone way beyond anything he has done before, as it applies to innings pitched. In all likelihood, he can probably handle it, but if he were to come up with a bad arm next spring, everyone would point to how he was handled in 2015. It’s just not worth it.

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  33. My point was that the Cubs built a bullpen full of guys that can get a strikeout and Madden obviously has the confidence to use all of the guys in that pen. Just look at the box score. Our pen was not built that way and just as obviously, Hinch does not have the confidence to use his entire pen.

    I would not rule out Keuchel getting used tonight, but how many times do you go to the well with this guy? He’s Cy Young material and has already been used far more than at any point in his career. If he comes up lame next spring, everyone will (logically) point to October 2015. I just don’t think it’s worth it. If we somehow play 12 or 15 more games this year and win the Series, it’s not going to be all Keuchel. The whole roster is going to be needed. At some point you’ve got to rely on them, or, wait till next year when you’ve resolved some of our depth issues.

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    • Yes, but let’s use them in the ALCS against a different team. KC has clearly shown they can hit our bullpen. They don’t strike out much and those type teams are tough on our contact-driven bullpen. I didn’t see any issues with MadBum this year despite his over use in the 2014 playoffs. Teams only get so many chances to win a World Series and when those opportunities present themselves everything and anything must be considered, including using your ace out of the bullpen in an elimination game.

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  34. My opinion (and that is all that it is) is Hinch or the computer blew it in game 4. That was the time to pull out all stops. The Astros would now have at least 3 days rest for everyone. That was the “all hands on deck” game. That was the “elimination game” for your current competitor. I don’t totally disagree with Tim, but if Hinch/Geeks did not see the need at that time, I don’t see them realizing the need tonight.

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    • Well it is interesting to hear what everyone thinks, not childish name calling. Everyone who contributes here has a lot of experience following baseball and often sees things that the rest or us may miss, or at the very least gets us to look at things from a different angle. There is a lot of intelligent discussion here.
      I mean – I am always right, I think we all agree on that – but other than that I am glad to listen to other opinions no matter how wrong they may be.

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    • My wish is that the Astros win tonight. And if Keuchel becomes a factor, I’ll just have to hope that he is physically able to do his job tonight and on down the road.

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      • I don’t know about that Diane, there were a few times this year when I thought we’d get swept ( like the Dodger series). The guys ended up looking like the superior team.
        Anything can happen in a seven game series. So let’s keep going this year, see how it plays out.

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      • When Pujols killed us, we went back and won the next game but lost in the Series.
        I won’t be liked for this, but I don’t want that route again. I want to go when it’s our year. And to meet the Cubs in the Series is the worst possible, and I mean worst possible, thing that could happen. No sympathy, no joy for Houston in the outlying areas in that scenario. No thanks, no.

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      • You know Diane I am a fan of all Houston sports teams. The only championships we have from the 3 major sports are the two Rocket titles from the mid-1990’s. Now those titles have been slightly tainted by the “You only won because Michael Jordan went off to play baseball” crap (excuse my French). But they were wonderful times and I would not mind at all extending the curse of the goat and bringing home our first baseball title to Houston. I assure you I would get as much pleasure out of everyone else crying for Chicago as I would from the title itself.

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      • I’m more concerned with how we can knock off KC and either TEX (had our number so far) or TOR than the Cubs, Dodgers, or Mets.

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  39. I have my Astros gear on too—as I did last night– when I sat down at 8 PM with my snacks— turned on FS1 and then realized the game was— tonight.
    Nothing like being over-frazzled.

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  40. Would you believe that the Rangers’ s Prince Fielder just got his first RBI of the playoffs? And on a slow rolling RBI groundout at that? Prince is hitting all of .118 for the post-season. Josh Hamilton is hitting .133. Mitch Moreland is 0-11. So . . . maybe Evan Gattis and Luis Valbuena aren’t so bad after all!

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  41. Sandy, Dan, Devin, Kevin — I knew this would get a rise, wasn’t trying for it. The comment about the Cubs in the Series was only in response to someone saying they’d like to see it. Didn’t mean it was automatic should we get by KC tonight. In fact, I do NOT think it’s automatic. Just been thru too many of these. If we’re the Cinderella team then sure, I want it. I’m just not convinced 2015 is that year. And nobody here wants to hear any more of that kind of talk. Good night and good luck.
    Edward R. Murrow?

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  44. Not one negative post on here tonight……ok?
    I want to keep my spirits high, and my expectations that my guys will take tonight’s game!! We need a cheerleader!! Whose gonna volunteer??!! I’ve got my Springer jersey on, and I’m sending him good vibes to hit a BIG homerun!!! Becky⚾⚾⚾

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  45. Becky – I feel like Mel Gibson at the end of “Signs”. A traumatic loss has made me lose faith in everything….and then I realize it is all part of a bigger plan and my faith floods back into my body and again I BELIEVE.

    So as head cheerleader, I ask you to repeat after me:
    – We have a 19 game (20 with the playoffs) winner going tonight – WE BELIEVE!
    – We have the best shortstop in the game going tonight – WE BELIEVE!
    – We have a right fielder who has been on a tear – WE BELIEVE!
    – We have a leftfielder who has 7 HRs in his last 8 games – WE BELIEVE!
    – We have a tired bullpen that has had a day rest and has big starting arms available to help out – WE BELIEVE!
    – We have a centerfielder, who has overcome injury to have a couple big offensive games – WE BELIEVE!
    – We have a catcher who has been very good behind the plate and had a huge 2 run hit in the game 3 win – WE BELIEVE!
    – We have one of the best 2Bs around who is due to bust out of his mini-slump – WE BELIEVE!
    – We have a 1B who has been on fire for the last 4 weeks including the playoffs – WE BELIEVE!
    (The DH and 3B come under the heading “and the rest” – like when Gilligan”s Island first came out and instead of the Professor and Mary Ann – they sang “and the rest”) – though personally I was much more a Mary Ann guy than Ginger….

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    • Thank you Dan, I needed that. I have on my blue Astros shirt ( not the lucky orange one that caused them to lose Monday) So I won’t hide in another room. I’m gonna be brave, I mean after all, that sounds like a dang good team.

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  46. Boy, things are falling apart for Cole Hamels in Toronto. 3 errors behind him and then a grand slam. Ouch! Both benches emptied.
    Made our Monday game look tame.

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