Outside the box: An Astros’ trade that splits the fans

Over the years, the city of Houston’s sports teams have opposed the mantra of former Astro manager Leo Durocher: “Nice guys finish last.” (By the way, it is probable that “The Lip” actually said something about his opponents the Giants being “nice guys and nice guys are in seventh place”, but later he claimed the more concise quote for the title of his autobiography).

But it has felt like over the years that the Rockets, Astros, Oilers and later the Texans were focused on adding nice guys to their rosters and not taking chances with players who have had character issues. And that is of course why many thought that these teams would never be successful. But now that the Astros and Rockets have been pretty nice guys and won the ultimate championships the desire to bring in “bad boys” has fallen to the side as a way to change their luck.

Truthfully, there have been problems over the years. The two-year suspensions of Lewis Lloyd, and Mitchell Wiggins of the Rockets for cocaine use was extremely public. The drug demons former Astro Ken Caminiti faced were not so public until his untimely death but were allegedly happening during his playing days, too. There have been charges (long after the fact) of alleged sexual harassment by former Oilers QB Warren Moon.  Astro Julio Lugo was accused of domestic abuse and was immediately DFA’d and released. There have been PED and recreational drug suspensions for players with all the local teams. There was also former Astro GM Ed Wade being beaten up by pitcher Shawn Chacon and immediately let go. (Chacon, not Wade).

But in general, the teams have not been a haven for those who were looking for a second chance. Perhaps Miguel Tejada was the closest to this. Perhaps the Astros knew Miguel Tejada was about to be identified as a PED abuser when they traded for him or perhaps this was naivete on Drayton McLane’s part.

Bottomline, what happened Monday afternoon was unusual in the history of Houston sports’ history. The Astros front office knowingly went out and traded for a player Roberto Osuna, currently serving a 75 game suspension for alleged domestic abuse. This trade is a test for the Astros’ fans, for the team for the young man himself. He is only 23 y.o. but has been in the big leagues since he was 20. He is not totally in the clear as the case is still open in the Canadian courts.  A critical player, Justin Verlander is supposedly unhappy about this pick-up as he is a huge opponent of domestic abuse.

One of the Astros’ most glaring weaknesses this season has been the bullpen. Now the front office may be showing a glaring weakness in the area of ethics as they attempt to fill that spot.

The fans are caught in the middle. They love their team. They know every weakness and want the team to succeed. But they wonder at what cost.

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115 responses to “Outside the box: An Astros’ trade that splits the fans”

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  1. I would hope that the guys on the team would approach Osuna (individually) and have a discussion with him about the issue. He needs to show them that he is no longer that person and looks for their support. Hopefully they won’t ostracize him. Everybody makes mistakes. It’s how we deal with them and learn from them afterwards determines what kind of person we are.

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    • Let me begin by saying with Giles, Luhnow as between 6, 8,10 or more rocks and equal number of hard places. The guy had to go. He had value but who wants a head case. So on the business side, the trade makes sense.

      On the personal side, if anyone has personally seen domestic violence, especially if you are a small child, it stays with you the rest of your life. “I am sorry” – doesn’t cut it. When a man has several children (you can insert allegedly if you like) and has married none, that also speaks to character. There are a lot of us that grew up in tough places that did not ever do what he has done (again, allegedly). I hope he does well. I hope the Astros do well. But Osuna better make Mother Teresa look like a prison inmate.

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  3. I would not have made this trade but I hope it works out for the Astros, Osuna and his family. Fans are always entitled to their opinions and can complain or withdraw their support as they choose. However, the moralizing I’ve seen from some parts of the media on this issue has been just bizarre. A young person with known anxiety issues did something increadibly stupid and short sighted. Appropriate punishment should be followed by appropriate rehabilitation. No self serving moral outrage is required.

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    • No moral outrage here just experience. One of my closest friends’s sister was in an abusive relationship. She finally decided to leave him after years of “he’ll change”. He responded by killing himself and their children. This is just one personal example of several. I want to think people can change but first second and third hand experience has shown it rarely happens

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  4. From a baseball prospective, this trade is bad timing. What a distraction. We’ve already got the distraction of three starters on the shelf. And then there is the distraction of our first real slump of the season.

    This is the time of year where a big trade is supposed to provide a real boost. Now we’ve got conflict instead. Many different, mostly legitimate opinions.

    At this point all we can do is hope that Luhnow really did do some remarkable due diligence. And we have to hope this kid has the ability to learn and mature and become a good man. And we have to hope his teammates, no easy sell, will at least give him a shot at showing them he can belong.

    The fans will have to make their own determinations. This is the toughest issue, the one that could alllow this distraction to fester. Is Houston going to accept this guy?

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  5. Personally, I go along with something I heard on the radio and that is, I am a bit angry that I’ve been put in this position by the team’s actions. It makes being a fan a bit awkward. Does it make me a bad person for supporting the team when they choose to do this?
    I was not directly affected by domestic violence growing up. We lived paycheck to paycheck but my late father was always a kind person. My mom tells the story about how when they were first married, she would duck or flinch every time dad would reach for something on the table – because her own father would be drunk and would swat whoever for whatever reason at the dinner table. That affected her for her life I think.
    I’m not outraged with this trade, I’m just really uncomfortable.
    It is up to Osuna and the team to make me feel comfortable with this situation and only time will do that.

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    • I was one of eight lucky kids of parents who celebrated 65 years of marriage and it certainly was not always a celebration. But we had a grounded, healthy household, we got fed, we got yelled at, we had the last black and white television in the neighborhood. Never a dull moment, never a vacation. I thought I had everything growing up. We thought that everyone had what we had.

      Later, out in the real world, I discovered otherwise.

      Yeah Dan, I just do not want to have to deal with what Luhnow dropped in our laps yesterday. I’d have rather watched our guys battle it out, try to shake the present slump and lose a wild card game, and then look forward to next year.

      My enthusiasm is just not the same as we enter the stretch run. What if we somehow manage to win the whole thing again and Osuna is the hero? I can’t embrace that vision at this point.

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  6. My fear is that this is 2015 deja vu when Luhnow made the trade for Carlos Gomez and Mike Fiers just to DO SOMETHING. I hope after losing out on Britton and some of the other prime closer options that he’s not settling just to do something. Giles being gone is a big plus IMO. From a pure baseball performance standpoint the trade is OK with me but it is dismaying that our culture so easily overlooks serious character issues so cavalierly. How else to explain the Clintons, Trump and who knows how many celebrities?

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  7. Dan I think “uncomfortable” is the perfect word, and Dave I agree, not the best time for a distraction, no matter who or what. I keep hoping this group as hole will actually get some fire in their belly and play like the World champs, not a mediocre AAA team. I am of course excluding the SP , they have battled all year.

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  8. I hope no comment was aimed at me about “moral outrage.” IF (and this is a big IF), the story noted above is accurate, he has made at least 4 mistakes. I hope he turns his life around. I will not be one to “wait for the other shoe to drop.” But giving stars a pass gets a little old for me. As Dr. Bill noted, common decency seems to have left us.

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  9. I don’t feel comfortable commenting on this topic anymore than I’ve already done. I don’t know the facts and can’t predict the future. My gut feeling is that Toronto should not have been permitted to make this trade at this time.

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  10. I’m torn over this trade, and not from a baseball perspective. On the one hand, I can not condone abusive behavior, nor support giving someone a free pass on their actions.

    On the other hand, everything that I have is a result of second, third, fourth, etc. chances. While I have never physically abused a woman or a child, there are plenty of things I have done, that if I were to be made to pay fully for repentance would probably prevent me from being where I am today.

    I myself am sickened from a lot of the moral outrage that I see from personalities (and no, I am neither speaking of nor referring to anyone on this site) who have their own issues that they have never been forced to pay for. It just doesn’t sit well with me.

    Right now, I will neither cheer for, nor against Osuna on the field. I will promise you this however, and do so unashamedly, I will pray for and cheer for him to overcome whatever internal issues caused him to behave in the way he did. I owe it to my God and Osuna’s family to desire that he become the man he was intended to be.

    I would rather this trade be a total and complete failure on baseball terms and see him become a productive and positive influence on his family and others, than the other way around. I’m truly hoping that he succeeds, if he does he will be fully vindicated and forgiven in my eyes.

    That’s just my opinion. Others have every right to see things differently and have other demands.

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  12. It’s kind of like Hinch grew another arm, and he’s not sure how to use it.
    I’m a woman, and even though I have never seen abuse up close and personal, I will give you my take. This trade put the manager in the absolute worst corner a guy could put another man. How do you address this “problem” with a team who has had one of the best reputation’s, in MLB? Not only has Luhnow put Hinch behind the 8 ball……Hinch has to guide this team through the first BIG slump of this season, while keeping the clubhouse “open”. I said yesterday that if God can forgive him, I will do my best to do the same. Right now it’s* RAW*, and it will be up to Jeff Luhnow to answer questions, and settle his team down.
    This is SO much bigger than swapping one problem for another, the ugly comments that will follow the Astros through the end of this season may be more than these guys can handle….. I certainly hope not. Becky⚾

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  13. On one hand I was taught everyone deserves a chance to correct their mistakes. But as a domestic violence victim its not an easy thing to do.
    My stepfather beat my mother so bad she would pretend to be unconscious just to stop him. Eventually I escaped and went to live with my grandparents but I have lifelong scars.
    Living with domestic violence undermines self confidence and self worth.
    It leaves its victims in a state of anxiety that stays with them through their entire life.
    I have never used my childhood as an excuse or crutch for my mistakes. In fact very few people even know about it.
    I can’t feel any sympathy for a man who earns hundreds of thousands of dollars and has to be forced to support his children.

    I won’t let this trade separate me from the team I love. But I’m ashamed
    that Mr. Osuna is a part of it.

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    • Sandy, like I said above, I’m lucky, I can’t know what you went through. I have great respect for your ability to deal with what you did. I don’t know how our clubhouse remains the same come Sunday.

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  14. I feel and respect every word you typed Sandy, I have seen the same in my youth, thankfully not my family. I have had the chance to work with Alcohol and drug addicted folks for 17 years. As you can imagine a lot of abuse in those lives, both getting and giving. I am here to share that from those 17 years I have seen about 25% of those people that have changed that behavior, have shown remorse, and made amends to all the people they love, by their actions, not words. I hope this is the case with Mr Osuna.

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    • I’m trying to decide if Baltimore or Tampa are the biggest losers. Probably Baltimore for who they got back in return.

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  19. Please understand that the following is based purely from a baseball perspective. We can discuss the pros and cons of the Osuna deal from a non- baseball point of view, but the following opinion does not include that.

    FROM A PURELY BASEBALL POINT OF VIEW (please re- read above before hurling stones), I think the Astros were big winners this year.

    They needed a proven, reliable middle reliever with shutdown stuff. They got that in Pressly.

    They needed a proven, reliable veteran catcher that could handle the pitching staff, control the bases, help with Stassi’s continued development and provide insurance against McCann’s health. They got that and more in Maldonado.

    They needed a shut the door, lights out, party’s over closer with electric stuff. They got that in Osuna.

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  20. I still think the Astros will make on more move for a bat. It would have to be someone that will pass through waivers. That pretty much takes the McCutchen/ Jones type guys out of the mix. It kind of leaves Shin- Soo Choo as the only real option.

    Shoo is owed around $8M for the rest of the season and $21M for each of the next 2 seasons. I don’t think there would be too many teams that would want to claim him. Due to his contract, the Astros could probably pick him up for a couple of high risk/ high reward low- level prospects.

    Say the Rangers eat $15M of his remaining salary for the next two seasons. You would have a very good bat (.280 BA) with high on base skills (.392 OBP) and decent pop (20HR) for $8M this year and $13.5M per year for the next two. He could provide some help in LF and at DH. His legs are shot (until he can recover in offseason) so he has no value as a runner. You’re probably seeing Gattis gone in FA at the end of the season and he could be a viable solution until someone else steps up.

    If the Rangers are willing to deal within the Division, and more importantly willing to deal with the Astros I could see this happening. His cost and remaining contract pretty much fit our window.

    Does anyone see any other options out there?

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      • I agree that Altuve and Correa returning would be the best trade they could make. I still think they are going to try and grab an extra bat if they can.

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    • I don’t see where he’d fit into the picture beyond 2018. He might help us immediately, but I think we’ve got better tooled option(s) going forward at a fraction of the cost. I’m thinking Tucker, Kemp, Straw along with Springer and Reddick. I also think we’ve got a 530K DH in house that will give us 20 homers and that high OBP.

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      • You may be right, but if I remember right, Kemp was never considered a great defensive 2nd baseman and I don’t think he has played much there in quite a while. I’m not totally sure though.

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      • Kemp won a (minor league) gold glove at 2B in 2014. He was always considered a very good defensive 2B in college. The problem, in my mind, is how well he can adjust to playing OF one day and 2B the next. On paper I don’t see a huge upgrade using one in LF v the other though.

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  22. I feel sorry for the Tampa Bay Rays tonight. Not only did they trade their catcher, but they traded the Ace of their team, Chris Archer. Everyone knows how I have been lusting after this guy, I am sorry for the rest of their team.
    The only starter they have left, is on the DL. Memories of how painful it was to watch Oswalt, Berkman, and Hunter Pence leave, I can’t imagine how deflated the rest of the Rays team are.
    I’m changing the subject, because what is done is done….and I guess it can’t be undone. We have Charlie on the mound tonight, let’s hope our guys can bring him #12 win tonight! GO ‘Stros ⚾!!!

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    • Fear not for the Jays, they got an excellent return. Meadows is a prodigy and Glassnow projects similar to Whitley (both in size and stuff). The PTBNL will probably be their first or second round pick from the 2018 draft.

      They gave up a lot to get a pitcher that has been injured much of the year, has an ERA well over 4 for the second season in a row and has a ton of miles on his arm. Tampa road that horse hard while they had him!

      I love Archer and think he’s still an asset but the Pirates paid handsomely to see if he returns to form.

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    • Wow, I haven’t even thought about it. Surely it would have to be Smith, Sipp or Harris. Sipp is having a pretty good run right now and is a lefty, so I assume he stays. They signed Smith to a 2 year contract so I wouldn’t think they would want to admit to failure (see Sipp 2016 & 2017). I would put my money on Harris.

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  25. In thinking about Zanuda’s question, I started pondering the whole Osuna situation. I really believe that Lunhow and company misinterpreted the level of negativity that the trade would cause, in both the internal (fans/ clubhouse) and external (media) forums. I would not at all be surprised to see a face saving press release stating that they have elected to delay putting him on the big league roster until the results of his follow up hearing are known, until the details of his case are better understood and/or until he completes some team mandated counseling/ recovery program.

    Just a gut feeling.

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  26. I’ve been quietly hoping the Canadian court system will not cooperate as Luhnow anticipates. That’s probably unlikely though. Indeed, I’d rather he miss the season, have time to settle into his new home, as you note, get his mental heath program initiated in Houston and then have all winter and Spring Training to meet and get acclimated with his new teammates. I think that’s a much healthier scenario for all involved, than dropping him into the clubhouse now. I’d be far more interested in how our present 25 work out of their slump and handle the stretch run. I’d also argue that we’ve got a better club than last year.

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    • I agree daveb. This whole mess needs to take time. Just can’t wrap my head around all the negatively coming from EVERY WHERE.

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  27. I can guarantee you one thing….no matter WHO we let go, the arlington little league will jump ALL OVER him!

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  29. With Altuve and Correa out I totally understand moving Bregman to the 3 hole. However, for the life of me I can’t understand moving Reddick up to #2. He is slashing a paltry .160/ .222/ ,340 with 10 strikeouts over his last 15 games. I would rather see Kemp or White moved up in the order and Reddick left in 7 or 8.

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    • Don’t know what’s going on but the whole team/organization seems to be in disarray right now. I could use some more colorful metaphors to describe it but I think everyone will get my point.

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      • How about this: after fouling off 4 straight balls around the zone, the inhabitants of 3 continents, Trump, the Pope and 2 bedouin tribes knew that the next pitch would be a breaking ball in the dirt. Unfortunately Marwin was not in this group.

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      • These guys will bottom out at some point. They might well be in third when it happens. I still think they’ve got a run in front of them though.

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  31. I have been trying for the last day to find a feeling like I had with the Osuna signing. I finally figured it out. (The following paraphrased from a NY Times article) It was the 1973 off-season. 22 y.o. star Cesar Cedeno was in a hotel room in the Dominican Republic when his pregnant girl friend died of a bullet to her head from his gun. He had had a recent incident that involved two prostitutes and $5000 in jewels stolen from him. People had heard him arguing with the woman on the way to the room. He left the hotel at 2 AM yelling that there was a dead woman in his room and then came back and turned himself in at 7 AM.
    He ended up being convicted of involuntary manslaughter, spent 20 days in jail and was fined $100. Oh and he was married at the time.
    I felt even more discomfort back then about Cedeno’s return vs. this situation – and I should have.

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    • I remember that well Dan. We had season tickets and my Dad, along with many others boycotted the Astros and refused to go to the games. It took a couple of years before people returned and the boos stopped. And that was before social media.

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    • Reddick knocks in Tony Kemp who should be leading off and then Reddick gets thrown out stealing 2nd for our mandatory man lost on the bases every game….

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  33. Did anyone read yesterday’s article about Bregman changing his approach at the plate? I believe it was in The Crawfish Boxes.
    Apparently he wants to become more powerful and hit more home runs.
    Says he’s not content to just be a doubles hitter.
    He wants to get under the ball more and hit more to left field.
    Wonder if that was his idea.

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    • I try to stay away from that site because of the comment section and some writers who can’t take criticism. However, on your recommendation I went and read the article. It’s good and uses a lot of data to back up their point. What I’d add is that Bregman actually made a conscious effort to change his approach between 2015 and 2016 so that more fly balls would become HR and fewer would drop in for doubles. The results have been generally positive. My suspicion in this season is that his hot June (11 HR) is in his head a bit too much right now. He may be trying to replicate those results a bit more than he should.

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    • So far, no he can’t. Bad hitting is as infectious as good hitting. Maybe we’ll turn it around. The true test will be if Marwin starts to hit. But I’ll take that 3-1 lead any day.

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    • He really can’t. Stassi has slumped but even during his slump he has outhit Maldonado. How bad? Minus the month of May, he’s batting .179 for the season.

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  37. J. Morales said Kemp has reached base safely in 18 of his last 23 starts, not bad. This made up lineup as constructed is showing some life thus far, keep it going fellas

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  40. Hope I convey this correctly….
    This unfortunate lineup change should be telling for AJ. When the regs are back full strength and they scuffle, as they have for extended periods this season, it’s ok to shake it up rather than be inflexible with the status quo. It does not have to be a major shakeup, but when the hot hand is hot or consistent, a move here or there might work. As not hitting has proved contagious, so is hitting, as we see this eve.

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  44. I’m soo happy for Charlie! End of July and he already has 12 wins! You know what’s would be the Cherry on top…..if Charlie won a Cy Young!! I know I’ll have sweet dreams tonight, I hope you do too! Becky⚾

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  48. Dear Sandy and ac45: the pain expressed was duly noted; it’s just that proper words were elusive and still are. OldSchool, with what you’re up against, you too are in my appeals.

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  49. Thoughts about yesterday…
    – Kemp continues to hit and get on base – with the top of the lineup decimated he should be at the top of the lineup
    – Nice to see Reddick squaring it up – it has been awhile since he had 3 RBIs I’m pretty sure
    – Gattis made sure this HR was well inside the foul pole instead of over it like the night before
    – White had a couple hits, but too bad one of them wasn’t when the bases were loaded
    – Scary moment that turned funny – Blummer was talking about how Morton turned sideways to the ball that hit him up the middle – how thin he is he did not leave much to hit. You could tell Morton just wanted the med staff and coaches to go away – his one warmup pitch with them watching had a little silent anger in it
    – Morton gets amazing movement sometimes – I especially like the pitch that starts way outside to righties and then darts over the plate
    – Good job by the bullpen – they protected a 1 run lead until Reddick’s HR gave Rondon a 2 run lead in the 9th
    Really important win especially with losing Springer. They hung tough and did not let the M’s close in on them. They did not let the controversy from the Osuna trade affect them.

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  50. If I’m reading this right – the last trade yesterday was the Dozier trade to the Dodgers around 4 PM. No last minute action at all around the majors – but it sure was busy before that.

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