CHIPALATTA

All Things Astros and a whole lot more

Top of the Week: Of bottlenecks, lineups and young players


Good morning, happy Monday! The Astros are 10 games away from the midpoint of 2015 and in a place no one dreamed just three short months ago. Again, No. You. Didn’t. Okay, maybe you did dream it, but you woke up in a cold sweat when you got to the part where Jim Crane was revealed to really be Gomer Pyle and he said “Sur-prise! Sur-prise! Sur-prise!”

Seriously, just when you think the Astros will bottom out, fall apart, go to pieces or end the run, somehow, someway, they pull out a series or a game.

How long will it last? Can they make it to August in first place? What new names will join the mix of George Springer and Jose Altuve? Here are some thoughts to start out your Monday…

The bottleneck is still coming.

If you recall, I wrote last year about the financial bottleneck that is coming in 2019-20. So many players will hit arbitration and free agency in that time frame that Jeff Luhnow will have to become a master juggler. Dallas Keuchel and Evan Gattis can be free agents in 2019, That same year, Springer, Collin McHugh and Brett Oberholtzer would be third-year arb-eligible, and other younger players will in the “system” by then as well.

That said, the bigger bottleneck is shaping up for as early as next season and 2017. As Dan so eloquently laid out over the weekend, the drafts are providing plenty of talent, which will free up funds. No, you know why Luhnow signed Colby Rasmus to a one-year deal. Preston Tucker, Domingo Santana, Springer are already in Houston, and Tony Kemp, perhaps Andrew Aplin and Brett Phillips will be here sooner than later. Throw in a surprise or two and the 2017 outfield (maybe even 2016) becomes a log jam.

The question before then may be to judge that talent and the ones you want on that team and delicately and shrewdly turn the others into a solid rotation piece and/or more compensation picks.

Seriously, other than perhaps catcher and perhaps, perhaps, first base) is there any place for a free agent signing this winter on the position side? Or will all/most of the money go to the rotation this off-season?

Speaking of bottlenecks…

Who’d have thought lining up the top of the order would be a problem for A.J. Hinch in June? Okay, yeah, you thought it might be an issue, but not in a good way. When Altuve returns, how do you hit the order? With Springer hot and Carlos Correa settling into the two-hole, do you dare move them away from 1-2? A contending team could do worse writing in the reigning AL batting titlist as its third hitter.

Here’s my thought for the top of the order: why mess with success? Is yours different?

  • Springer.
  • Correa.
  • Altuve.
  • Gattis.
  • Tucker.

If Jed Lowrie returns hitting like when he left (.300/.432/.567), Hinch will have to plug him in topside somewhere as well.

Can the Astros count on the young guys?

It’s a significant jump for a position player from AA to the majors. It’s highly unusual for a pitcher, and the Astros have jumped two this spring in Lance McCullers Jr. and Vincent Velasquez (three if you count Michael Feliz‘ short stint). Remember when Altuve, J.D. Martinez and Jimmy Paredes made that jump. Worked out well for Altuve, who hit the lineup running and never left. Martinez and Paredes struggled, though Martinez has clearly found his stride…in Detroit.

McCullers is clearly a keeper, but Velasquez may need more seasoning in how to miss bats and throw more “bad” strikes. And that is the tale of jumping players a complete level. Santana may also need more time at AAA, but Tucker seems ready to plant his flag somewhere in the order. When August and September roll around, which other players — either in Houston or not — do you believe will be making a contribution on the roster?

Advertisements

About Chip Bailey

Chip Bailey lives in beautiful Colorado Springs, CO, and wakes up each morning to the tallest spot in the region, Pikes Peak. He is an author and former sports editor and sportswriter who has followed the Astros for more than 50 years. A native of another picturesque city, Natchitoches, La., Chip enjoys watching baseball at most any level, especially pro and college. Several years ago, he worked as an associate of Pastor John Bosman, who enjoyed giving nick names to his staff. Pastor Bosman came up with Chipalatta, and it has stuck.

54 comments on “Top of the Week: Of bottlenecks, lineups and young players

  1. Kevin
    June 22, 2015

    I would love top see Kemp, those 2 catches he made the other day in Center, where “Springer” like. VV needs to learn how to pitch, great arm, but right now he is just a thrower.

    Springer
    Correa
    Tucker
    Gattis
    Altuve
    Lowrie(valbuena)
    Carter
    Marisnick/Rasmus
    Castro
    I think the 3 hole you need a powre RBI Guy.

    Like

  2. Kevin
    June 22, 2015

    Not sure where we play Kemp?

    Like

    • Mr. Bill
      June 22, 2015

      * With Springer hot and Carlos Correa settling into the two-hole, do you dare move them away from 1-2? *

      Sure. Carlos Correa is destined to be a 3-hole hitter. Altuve, when he is healthy, is excellent as a 2-hole hitter. And if Springer and the #2 hitter both get singles, Altuve is 1. a better candidate than Correa to be on the back end of a double steal, and 2. Correa is a better candidate to make something happen on one pitch if the lead runner of the tandem gets thrown out on the double steal attempt. Unless Preston Tucker gets there, we still do not have a true #4 hitter, so this team really needs the best power + average + speed guy we have at #3.

      Barring a trade [of Gattis or Carter, or both] I’d personally like to see the line-up after the ASB mutate towards:
      1. Kemp [CF];
      2. Altuve [2B],
      3. Correa [SS]
      4. Springer [RF]
      5. Tucker [LF]
      6. Gattis [DH];
      7. Carter [or vs. RHP, Lowrie], [1B];
      8. Valbuena [or, vs. LHP, Lowrie], [3B]
      9. Castro [or vs. LHP, Heineman, who should replace Conger] [C].

      Liked by 1 person

  3. 1oldpro
    June 22, 2015

    If you move an older player with production and salary for an older player who fills a need, you are a trader. A prospect for a vet, you are a buyer. A vet for a prospect, you are a seller. If you do all three, you are the 2015 Astros GM.
    Chip, I see Kemp as a player whose current rule V status and the return of Lowrie, may just keep him off this team until next spring. I see Philips as a later, rather than a sooner.
    When August and September roll around, I see Stassi, Santana, Singleton and Velasquez with the team. I see Veras and possibly Chapman in September.
    Pat Neshek is incredible!

    Liked by 1 person

    • Chip Bailey
      June 22, 2015

      OP, with the recent promotions, Phillips is clearly becoming the glistening charm of the organization. Not sure if he’ll ever reach Correa-level anticipation, but wouldn’t be hard to see him making the Corpus-to-Houston jump at some point. No? Or at least a cameo at Fresno, though the question could be where does he fit on the roster and lineup by that time.

      Liked by 1 person

  4. Dan P
    June 22, 2015

    Good Morning Chip!!
    Thoughts….
    – Outfield bottleneck – Perhaps you teach Tucker how to play 1B or as Tim is pushing for, put him in as the DH. Kemp could be the super-sub playing IF and OF (though I understand he can’t play the left side of the infield). Part of it will depend on who actually forces their way up. Is Maverick Phillips (his mom calls him by his middle name because his dad is Brett, also) going to continue the raking when he is moved back to sea-level at Corpus Christi (which could be called C-level)? Will Aplin show he can hit above AA? And don’t look now, but after a couple exciting games – Domingo Santana has 6 Ks in 10 ABs. Yikes.
    – The batting order is a tough one to fiddle with – but I would do the following:
    Springer
    Altuve
    Correa
    Gattis
    Tucker
    I think this would continue to help Springer and frankly help Altuve by not putting him in the “power” spot of 3rd in the lineup. Correa can handle it I think.

    As far as the youngsters go – yes, Velasquez needs some more seasoning, though I like the idea from yesterday (Dr. Bill as I recall) of tandem tying Velasquez with McCullers Jr. That way you don’t have to eat up the rest of the bullpen for their starts.

    Coming up in August, September.
    Thomas Shirley, Wojo, Appel, Duffy, Kemp, Hoes. Maybe one of the relievers like Tyson Perez. Definitely a third catcher like Heineman. Singleton if he is still around.
    If you are contending, you should pull up more bodies, so you can pinch run late, so you can situational pitch to a lefty, so you can pinch hit for the catcher….Fill that bench up and work on their dance moves.

    Like

  5. Devin_
    June 22, 2015

    I bet Hinch goes Springer-Correa-Altuve-Gattis…but my preference would be S-A-C-G right now…and possibly S-A-Lowrie-C-G depending on how well he bounces back from the injury.

    The one thing I am certain of is that we do not want Gattis/Carter/Castro routinely on base in front of Springer or Correa. We want guys who can score from first when they hit the gap and let them be aggressive.

    Like

    • Lester J. Gillis
      June 22, 2015

      The way Gattis/Carter/Castro are hitting at this point, I don’t think they are much of a threat to be routinely on base in front of Springer and Correa. You’re right to want baserunners that can score from first on doubles, but you need baserunners that can get on first to begin with.

      Like

      • Steven
        June 22, 2015

        Carter’s OBP since 1 May – .353. Since 15 May – .379.

        I get just as frustrated watching him get dominated by every pitcher that can hit 95 also. Walker is having a bad year, and his command is very much like you expect a 22 year olds to be, and yet Carter still made him look great. That said, Carter is actually getting on base quite a bit. Stats don’t lie.

        Like

      • Lester J. Gillis
        June 22, 2015

        Steven – no reply button with your post, but even if Carter is getting on base at a better clip these days – and he sure is – he still clogs up the bases because he is very slow and rarely able to score from first on a double.

        Like

      • Steven
        June 23, 2015

        Agreed. I would reply he is probably challenged to score from first on a triple. Maybe even a homerun.

        Like

  6. Kevin
    June 22, 2015

    Altuve in the 5 hole takes all the pressure of him as he is a bit screwed up right now IMHO

    Like

  7. Kevin
    June 22, 2015

    Altuve in the 5 hole takes all the pressure of him for a while, as he is a bit screwed up right now at the plate, IMHO

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Tony Eusebio
    June 22, 2015

    My question: what kind of money do you think management will be willing to spend this offseason and who should they target? The answer to that should affect how we approach the trade deadline.

    Like

    • Steven
      June 22, 2015

      Finding a CF’er would be great, but it maybe more economical to stick with Marisnick and get prepared to pay the Altuve/Springer/Correa/Keuchel contracts that are coming – though Altuve’s puts him a little out there time wise. I really don’t expect them to make any major moves FA wise – though they are still in the rumor mill on Hamels.

      Like

  9. Roger
    June 22, 2015

    Great post, Chip.
    Springer
    Altuve
    Lowrie
    Gattis
    Correa
    Tucker
    Carter
    RasNick
    Castro
    If they trade Carter I see Lowrie at 1st—–Valbuenna at 3rd.

    Like

  10. astrocolt45
    June 22, 2015

    I am just as guilty as anyone wanting certain players traded. Let me use Carter for example: Who might want him? Bosox – for Napoli (.203) w/ balance of $16 Million contract. Maybe? Indians – for Santana (.211) with over $11 Million in salary committed. So it would be Carter to someone for prospects. What could he possibly bring? Maybe a couple A ball pitchers? I believe that JL would have traded him already if he could get anything. Looks like we can’t sell high or low on Castro until we find (or trade for a catcher). Conger is NOT it. CS of 6%. I have not watched 100% of every game, but every game he catches he flat out just does not catch some pitches that hit his glove. I am starting to wonder if it is eye-sight.

    Like

    • Nance (@Bbfanlady)
      June 22, 2015

      Astrocolt45 – I was wondering about Congers eyesight yesterday. There was a ball on the ground right by his foot and he couldn’t find it for what seemed like 5 minutes. My first thought, seriously, was ” I wonder if he needs glasses”.

      Like

    • Mr. Bill
      June 22, 2015

      Barring a season-ending injury to anther contending team’s 1B or DH at a critical time before the deadline, at best Christ Carter is going to be a ‘throw in’ on a bigger trade for starting pitching or real 1B help. We just have to accept that we are not ever probably not going to receive anything of substance for Chris. At some point we have to just acknowledge that he is never going to be the guy he teased us that he could be last summer, and cut our losses. We’ve got a logjam of talent, and since Chris doesn’t even come close to fitting the profile of the World Champion Astro team of 2017, he just has to go. We need his spot on the 40 and 25 man rosters. We need to cut down unproductive offensive at bats [esp. Ks.] and he is by far the biggest offender. While it would be nice to use Chris’ salary dollars as a down payment towards the demands of Scott Kazmir or whoever else the F.O. decides to bring in, to pitch, that just may not happen. As far as the bag itself, Lowrie, Gonzalez, and/or Tucker and/or Singleton can fill the defensive position. Shoot, Tony Sipp or Jason Castro could probably play a pretty decent 1B in a pinch!

      Liked by 1 person

    • Steven
      June 22, 2015

      I don’t know, Conger blocked at least 4-5 balls in the dirt the other night catching McCullers. His arm to me is suspect, the only stolen base he gave up that game was really on Hernandez not him, but it did seem like his throw was kinda non-line drivish. It looked like a poke over the SS. I think he is fine in his role. I am not sure he would be a great answer to catch 5 times a week instead of 1 time a week, but he probably wouldn’t be the worst every day catcher out there either. I think he gets a bad rap on chipalatta.

      Like

      • Chip Bailey
        June 22, 2015

        “I think he gets a bad rap on chipalatta” Steven, I agree on the “bad rap” part. Of course most of the rap is what the Astros gave up to get him. We also do not know how much behind-the-scenes “coaching” he may have done with the entire pitching staff and even Castro, who is undeniably a much better catcher this year than last. Pitch framing is more than just holding a mitt in a certain location and positioning your body…it involves the entire process from the pitcher to the time the umpire make a call. Hopefully, we’ll get some inside info on this at some point, but the Astros may not want to release certain info…maybe the Cardinals will tell us before it’s all over.

        Like

      • Steven
        June 22, 2015

        I absolutely agree that having given up Tropeano I expected a lot more. I thought the guy would compete for THE job, not part of the job. I don’t know that he can do it, but he is a better ball player than a lot of the bloggers here give him credit for.

        Like

      • Steven
        June 22, 2015

        BTW – I thought his pitch framing was great for McCullers in the game he pitched of the home series with Seattle. I was watching the Seattle version of root sports as the Houston one was blacked out for me – and they have pitchEQ up in the corner the whole game. There were 4 balls that were called strikes by the ump according to EQ in just the first inning.

        Like

      • Mr. Bill
        June 22, 2015

        A catcher – even a major league back-up catcher – needs to be a quick thinking, sure footed ‘rock’ of stability for the team. Hank looks more like a slow-reacting, poorly-coordinated sand-pebble-in-the-floodwater for us. This year, in limited action that I have seen Hank has:
        1. been faked out badly on an easy tag at the plate, allowing a run to score;
        2. tripped over a bat on the ground and missed what should have been an easy pop-out right at the plate;
        3. thrown out a total of one base-stealer in 16 chances – and looked pretty much helpless in the area of managing base runners all season;
        4. hit .208 and struck out 24 times in 77 at bats [acknowledgment: this has been offset by the fact that, despite primarily useless at bats, he has surprised everyone by sprinkling in 8 unexpected EBH’s, including 4 HRs – such that offensive production, by itself, would not be a sufficient reason to give up on him as a back-up catcher];
        5. he’s focused so much on framing pitches, and so little on catching them, that in several games he has missed pitches Castro would have easily caught or blocked, but he missed them so badly that he didn’t even get charged with a passed ball because he never moved his mitt from the target he had set up. Especially with our young pitchers, I’d much rather him just let the umpire call a ball on our guy because he moved than he lets a runner move into scoring position or take 3rd just because he’s trying too hard to coax a strike we don’t deserve; and
        6. Tyler Heineman is coming sooner rather than later – and Jake Nottingham is behind him, and Hank is quite frankly nowhere near good enough to compete with either of those guys.

        Like

      • Steven
        June 23, 2015

        Bill, you sound like you expect a perfect ball player. Noone ever wins if everyone plays perfect. His offense is too short sample to matter. Anything under 100 plate appearances tells us very little about what he will do the NEXT 100 plate appearances. Springers first 100 he was under .200.

        I think the guy is fine as a backup. This time last year the hot minor leaguer was Stassi. Now its Heineman. Or Nottingham. Every minor leaguer that has a good season isn’t our next superstar. Conger at least does decent in the majors. He isn’t an all star. He really isn’t even a good choice as your starter, but he isn’t the starter. He is affordable, has some power, blocks the plate better than you are giving him credit for. His arm is weak. He needs better help from his pitchers too on that. I’m fine with him catching McCullers and Keuchel – or splitting Keuchel with Castro.

        Like

    • Steven
      June 22, 2015

      As for Carter – all you have to do is google “Chris Carter trade rumors.” They are non existent. I know sometimes trades come out of the blue, but noone has talked about this guy in a trade since July of last year. There doesn’t seem to be demand for him, and that has to be part of the equation – otherwise you give him away for practically free.

      Like

  11. Dan P
    June 22, 2015

    chron.com (Spit!!) is reporting that the Astros are about to move Appel from AA to AAA. After a really bad start to the season he has strung together a series of good starts….maybe he will be up here sooner than later.

    Like

  12. Dan P
    June 22, 2015

    Chris Carter is such an enigma. In the last 4 weeks he is hitting .266 BA / .406 OBP / .950 OPS which are good numbers if he could produce them all the time (which he doesn’t). On the other hand even when he is “hot” he still Ks in more than 30% of his plate appearances. I don’t know what to say.

    Like

    • Devin_
      June 22, 2015

      How many 1B do put up a .950 OPS all the time without the help of PEDs or Steroids? Heck, I’m expanding, but I think the HR for Nelson Cruz off Keuchel was his first in a month. Hot/Cold happens to a lot of guys.

      Like

      • Mr. Bill
        June 22, 2015

        True, Devin. Everybody has a little cold streak. But over the course of 2015 so far here is the pretty impressive difference between Mr. Carter and Mr. Cruz:

        Cruz – BA .315
        OBP .382
        OPS .954
        HR – 19
        RBI – 44
        Ks – 70

        Carter – BA .204
        OBP .326
        OPS .726
        HR – 12
        RBI- 35
        Ks – 95 [in 69 games]

        Now, let’s be more fair, and look at the Rangers’ 1B, Mitch Moreland [in 50 games]
        BA .294
        OBP .348
        OPS .848
        HR – 8 [in 19 fewer games than Carter]
        RBI – 33 [in 19 fewer games than Carter]
        Ks – 44 [in 50 games and 180 ABs]

        Like

    • Mr. Bill
      June 22, 2015

      I felt that way last year, Dan. I felt that way after ST. I don’t feel that way any more. I’ve seen enough Now I know what to say – or should I say sing:

      Memories . . . from the infield of my mind.
      Hazy, unfulfilling memories – of the way we were.
      Scattered homers . . . way too few and far between;
      smothered in a sea of strikeouts – that’s the way we were.

      Could it be that we were home-run crazy then?
      Why do K’s just scream from every line?
      If we had the chance to trade Sir Chris again,
      tell me would we – could we?

      Memories . . . from his arbitration year.
      Way too many at-bats wasted, for the way we were.
      Memories . . . are so beautiful and yet.
      What’s too painful to remember, we should simply choose to forged.

      But its the whiff sound, we will remember,
      whenever we remember, the way we were.

      Like

      • Mr. Bill
        June 22, 2015

        * That should, of course, be forget, not ‘forged’

        Like

      • Dan P
        June 22, 2015

        So is Chris Carter playing the part of Robert Redford?

        Like

      • Mr. Bill
        June 22, 2015

        Yes, but Robert Redford was clearly the better hitter. Just look in the Hollywood Dictionary of baseball under the heading: ‘The Natural’

        Like

      • Tony Eusebio
        June 22, 2015

        Just the fact that he’s capable of the type of hot streak he went through last year when he won player of the month in my opinion makes him worthy of getting some benefit of the doubt.

        Like

      • 1oldpro
        June 22, 2015

        Tony, when I haven’t done anything this year, I can tell my boss that it’s okay, because I did something good last year. I’m sure my boss would be satisfied with that.

        Liked by 1 person

  13. drbill14
    June 22, 2015

    Kemp is an intriguing talent and has a skill that this team lacks, namely high BA, high OBP, low K. If we bring him up why not try something really radical and exchange him for one of the high K thumpers. I like Gattis but what would we miss if Kemp got his at bats? Or put Gattis at first and get rid of Carter. Kemp walks more than he strikes out. Removing three or four strikeouts per game from Carter/Gattis seems like a good thing and a fair trade off for the occasional HR. At the start of the year our running game was wreaking havoc with some defenses. Doesn’t seem like that is happening so much and with Altuve hurt it probably won’t be any time soon. Kemp hitting 1 or 9 might revitalize that part of the offense and a distracted pitcher is more likely to serve up some mistakes to the big guys.

    Like

  14. drbill14
    June 22, 2015

    Just saw on MLB.Com that Reed and Kemp made the top prospects of the week. In June Reed is slashing 462/.557/.731 and his OPS for the week was 1.763 (565/.676/1.087)!!!! Kemp wasn’t slouching either at AAA 400/.438/.533.

    Like

    • Becky
      June 22, 2015

      Exactlty why I’ve been telling you guys to keep an eye on reed!! That kid has a pure swing that will make a manager drool!!!!!

      Like

  15. Tim
    June 22, 2015

    The Astros should be in this race the rest of the season. Carter frustrates me as much as anyone, but I don’t think Singleton is even on par with Carter, offensively or defensively, and with Lowrie’s injury history I am not willing to trade our only viable 1B unless we acquire one via trade. I don’t want to have MarGpaying regularly and I definitely don’t want to move a gold-glove caliber OFer in Springer to play 1B. Unless we get a veteran 1B in a trade Carter must stay, in my opinion.

    Like

    • Dan P
      June 22, 2015

      I would like to see Tucker at 1B. Not a gazelle in LF but I would like to see that more consistent bat in at 1B and split the OF between Springer Rasmus Marisnick and Santana.

      Like

      • Tim
        June 23, 2015

        I would like to see Tucker getting some reps at 1B, but not sure I want to try it during a pennant race. I would prefer he get reps at ST next year.

        Like

  16. Devin_
    June 22, 2015

    Why are we shifting on Chris Iannetta? The guy is hitting in Valbuena territory…why give him freebies?

    Like

  17. Mr. Bill
    June 22, 2015

    96 Tears [I mean 96 Ks for Chris].

    Like

    • 1oldpro
      June 22, 2015

      Ahh, Question Mark and the Mysterians. I think it was from their album “Question Mark and the Mysterians Greatest Hit”

      Like

  18. Dan P
    June 22, 2015

    Well I could see that one coming. He couldn’t keep the ball down to Pujols and voila it is 2-1 Angels.

    Like

  19. 1oldpro
    June 22, 2015

    Hello, Domingo Santana, Hanna, Fanna fo Banna, Fee Fi Fanna, Santana!

    Like

  20. 1oldpro
    June 23, 2015

    Wait, did Qualls just give up a run and take the loss. Didn’t see that coming.

    Like

  21. Becky
    June 23, 2015

    Man, oh man……….WHEN is Hinch gonna learn. ((((((( QUALLS )))))))

    Like

    • SargeH
      June 23, 2015

      Exactly. This also has to fall upon Luhnow as he is in charge of who is on the roster to begin with.

      Like

  22. Tim
    June 23, 2015

    Unfortunately, you can’t trust Qualls to pitch to either protect a lead or when the game is tied. He simply doesn’t have it anymore and I think it has gotten to the point that Hinch has to realize mop up duty is really the only time you can use him.

    Like

    • Dan P
      June 23, 2015

      As the guys on the radio pointed out – Qualls was one culprit and the top 6 in the lineup who went 1 for 23 were accomplices. Springer came within inches of a dinger though.

      Like

    • Devin_
      June 23, 2015

      Glad I turned off and went to bed before that happened.

      Did anyone else see the stat that Marwin Gonzalez is the fifth toughest player to walk in MLB? I’ve been in his corner in the last few years, but he’s not playing as well this season.

      Like

  23. Zanuda
    June 23, 2015

    Might as well been a mile on the “HR” by Springer but that 1 for 23 killed them. I had to read the play by play to see what happened in the 8th. Qualls gives up a single, WP by Qualls, pop out. Thatcher on a walk and a stolen base to third, then the safety squeeze that was mishandled by Carter. He might have gotten Aybar with a clean throw but not to be. Lots of blame to go all around on this one.

    Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Information

This entry was posted on June 22, 2015 by in Astros.
Follow CHIPALATTA on WordPress.com

Our Team

%d bloggers like this: